No Answers Now and The Hossa Dilemma
Al Cimaglia | Apr 14, 2011 | Comments 49
It has taken a couple of years but now Canuck GM Mike Gillis has put together a group which can play physical hockey and stay out of the box. Maybe the Canucks can’t play for 60 minutes the away they did in the opening twenty last night, but it probably isn’t necessary to defeat the Hawks.
If the Canucks could perform for sixty minutes with the same physicality and skill they displayed in the opening frame on Wednesday night, the Blackhawks would have zero chance of winning this series. As it is now the Hawks probably put forth enough effective effort during the second and third periods to give fans a ray of hope.
Those which want to believe the Roberto Luongo was fortunate to get a shutout, I agree. But don’t forget the most important point, Luongo was really sharp and although Corey Crawford was very good, Bobby Lu was better. Actually Luongo doesn’t have to outplay Crawford to win the series. He only has to not allow bad goals. A good Luongo will be enough to send the Canucks into the second round and last night he was much better than good.
Maybe an important factor to realize is the best goal scoring chances came from the newly formed, old number one line. If Joel Quenneville can play Patrick Sharp, Jonathan Toews and Patrick Kane for 27 or 28 minutes a night, Luongo and his mates could have their hands full.
The Ducks employ a similar method by playing Corey Perry and company many minutes in each game. But they are big, tough players who are used to shouldering the load. After the way this season has gone Toews, Kane and Sharp probably wouldn’t last very long playing many more minutes.
Quenneville will still try to lean heavily on his number one line because he really doesn’t have any other choice. Changes will come this summer but for now Coach Q. is overmatched and has no answers.
The Hawks have been exposed as a one line team relying heavily on a few players. That is the opposite of the Canucks and exactly 180 degrees away from the type of team the Blackhawks were last season.
Al’s Shots
If Hawk management can’t find a center which can play effectively with Marian Hossa he will be no more than an overpaid luxury item.
Hossa isn’t a spring chicken and as it is now he can’t string together top scoring performances. Oh, I realize he has elite talent and is one of the better two- way players in the game. But no one pays $7.9 million, Hossa’s salary for this season, for a strong back checker.
Forget about getting six shots on goal, last night Hossa needed to be the best Blackhawk. Hossa had to be the whole show in a game the Hawks desperately needed. I’m not talking about good, I mean a difference maker. See Pavel Datsyuk’s performance from last night as an example.
On most nights I love watching Hossa play and appreciate his natural talent but…For the Hawks to move forward from a playoff bubble team to a true Stanley Cup contender Hossa has to be better or at least make others better.
The last time Hossa scored 100 points was in 2006-2007 with the Thrashers. That was also the last time he has played a full season. Since then Hossa’s highest point total is only 71 from 2008-209. Actually that was the only time Hossa has achieved at least 70 points since his 100 point campaign in Atlanta.
Much of the issue is Hossa can’t stay healthy. He isn’t getting any younger and his body parts are the same, so maybe that won’t change.
The way Hossa’s contract is weighted the Hawks are on the hook for $7.9 million through the 2015-2016 season. That is unless Stan Bowman could find a way to trade him.
Having Hossa cycle the puck endlessly and not convert the effort into scoring chances, goals or assists is only pretty watch. Certainly it’s entertaining but not worth almost $8 million per season.
There are many things to fix here before next season. On the top of Bowman’s list should be to find a center to play with Hossa or to find a way to deal him elsewhere.
Trading Hossa is less likely than being able to find a center who can compliment him. But that won’t be an easy task either. Hossa isn’t a breeze to play with as he has only really clicked with Toews while in Chicago.
One issue is Hossa and Kane play the same position. But the Hawks’ front office knew that and still signed Hossa through 2021. He helped the Hawks capture the Cup last year but… Either Hossa can’t do more or is being underutilized.
I’m hoping age and injuries haven’t caught up with Hossa. Hopefully it is more a case of being underutilized. Right now having Hossa on this club is like driving a Testarossa only in rush hour traffic.
Sure the car looks great in your driveway and the neighbors are probably envious. But in many ways the expense can’t be justified.
Filed Under: Al Cimaglia • Chicago Blackhawks • Featured • NHL
Didn’t expect that reaction.
I brought up the Hossa enigma earlier in the year and got nothing but crapped on. My whole argument for keeping Havlat was that he could create his own opportunities and opportunities for others while Big Hoss is not that type of player and never has been. Who doesn’t score 30+ goals playing with Crosby, Malkin, Daytsuk or Kovalchuk before he got paid?
Not really apples to apples. On paper and in terms of an overall player there is no doubt Hossa is the better option but in terms of fitting into the Hawks system/style of play/personal I would make a strong argument.
**I love the car analogy that is well played.**
Kane could also shoot the puck, that would be neat…
It was one game, very entertaining and 2 very good periods. Score sheet wasn’t ideal but that’s what happens when you run out 3 rookies (discounting Crawford), 2 players who have never seen play off action at all and some health concerns. I think Friday will go better if they can come out of the gates with fewer butterflies and match some of the physicality.
I have said in the past Hossa is a better all around player than Havlat…But it wasn’t a clear choice for me.
Havlat for 5 years and 30 mill is more acceptable than Hossa for mega bucks until 2021.
Until now there is NO DOUBT Havlat adapted better….Don’t forget he went to the THIRD LINE which sparked the Hawks.
Hossa on many nights doesn’t fit in and doesn’t make anyone better…Which Havlat did.
BTW….Many will disagree with me too…But that’s ok…The numbers don’t lie.
This piece was more about the Hawks future concerns with Hossa…not to compare him with Havlat but it is a valid point.
I had major issues with the years and contract for a guy at/past his prime. I get that it isn’t a direct comparison but come the 11th hour it was one or the other who would be on the Hawks roster.
It is a catch 22, do you assume the “superior” player and veteran can come in, adjust and be successful or do you keep the guy that has been one of your best players who is under 30 (hitting prime) and scores a little less but in crunch time with out any top tier support.
In the business world I believe it is what they call a “management decision” that we aren’t supposed to understand or question just accept and hope it pays off
Hossa is who most of us thought he was. 25+ goals if healthy for enough games, defensively responsible with the likelihood of disappearing for stretches. Lots of Daytoit fans warned us what we were getting into.
It’s like complaining about Bickell not being physical or Bolland not being a consistent offensive force to be reckoned with…
The guy is who he is and either needs to be put in a situation where he can be successful and you can use his strengths or replaced/eat the bill for the mistake.
…..had major issues with the years and contract for a guy at/past his prime……….
BINGO
That is what I said back then too.
Look at the HOF goal scoreres…The majority faded in point production past their early 30′s.
Teemu Selanne is a freak of nature and one of the few exceptions.
I’m more or less in line with Al on the somewhat off topic Havlat vis a vi Hossa. You can’t discount what Hossa did to help us win the cup, but in value over the life time of the contracts; Havlat probably has the edge.
I’m not a big fan of these 10-15 year contracts. It’s just too hard to sustain that level of performance for that long.
Hawks might end up moving one of their core. That that they neccessarily have to, but because they realize they have to shift so much they want to.
I agree about the long-term deals but not about the Havlat/Hossa debate. Management has probably made the money to cover his contract in spin-offs from the cup win. Al is right, SB needs to find a center to play with him.
Shruew you remember what I wrote at the time…
All things taken into consideration Havlat was better choice…although he doesn’t have the same talent set as Hossa.
Al, thanks for this.
Not sure why a Hossa-Havlat debate comes up at this time of year, but I assume you are comparing playoff performance.
More on that in a second.
First things first. Mike Gillis didn’t want to lose to the Blackhawks again, so he went out and got depth players who are proven NHL guys. Ex-Habs Max Lapierre and Chris Higgins had holes in their games which kept them being true Top 6ers, but as support guys they rock. (Raffi Torres is another one of those, and he’s back soon as well.)
Compare this to Chicago’s creamy middle masquerading as a group of ‘B’ forwards.
If VAN plays with the discipline they showed last night, this series will be over very quickly.
OK, now to Hossa. The player he best compares with is Johan Franzen, a guy who can score and make good things happen anytime he plays, but who is best when matched with linemates who compliment his skills. And Franzen isn’t anywhere near as complete as Hossa. The problem in Chicago is that beyond Sharp, Toews, Kane and Hossa (and let’s add Bolland) there is a MAJOR drop off in the forward talent.
Re: Havlat, he was injured most of the time he played in Chicago, and never delivered full value.
The whole notion of “makes other players better” is IMO a myth. Either players learn to bring their game to a higher level when playing with elite guys like Hossa, or they don’t. Hossa is one of the best in the game and was HIGHLY sought after by the Pens and Wings, which drove up his market price.
So his price is what it is. AND the Hawks won the Cup with him. There’s no free lunch.
Let’s be blunt. This Hawks team isn’t good enough to win Stanley this year, and maybe not even good enough to win a game against Vancouver.
And that cannot be blamed on the quality players.
The guys who have to take the blame are the ones who took the places of the departed, and haven’t gotten it done. We know who they are.
For Hawks’ fans’ sake, here’s hoping this team comes out skating and hitting in Game Two. From the drop of the puck. For a change.
You are right.
Hossa was the lower risk and better player there is no argument there from me.
I don’t think it is players elevating their level of play with Hossa so much as it is that Hossa can only thrive playing with other elite players, while other players can be successful with no help. Though if you look at his numbers…
He is an enigma because he seems to disappear then you look at the stats and all of a sudden he is 25/32 over 60 some games and find yourself wondering when he scored and how you missed it.
“Chicago’s creamy middle”
Ha – nice phrasing!
“Re: Havlat, he was injured most of the time he played in Chicago, and never delivered full value.”
That was never the argument. It was going forward, compared to where those players were then (two seasons ago), who would be better. Havlat has played more regular season games per season than Hossa so far.
Anyway…
Will be interesting to see what happens in the off season. Hopefully the Hawks won’t rely on the bevy of lower skills, fight happy Hogs to fill too many holes.
Dave…This was not meant to be a Hossa versus Havlat rehash.
That ship has sailed.
It is about improvement for the future and Hossa is not worth 8 mill a season and shouldn’t be counted on to be a point game plus player unless he has set linemates that he meshes with.
Now is the time for Hawk mgt. to make Hossa the most effective he can be or realize the expectations are too high….
And if that is the case I would suggest exploring all trade possibilities as highly unlikely as that might be.
PS correction: “Ex-Habs Max Lapierre and Chris Higgins had holes in their games which kept them *from* being true Top 6ers, but as support guys they rock”
Darn that lack of spellcheck/edit LOL.
Q basically went with 2 lines after the first period. No way you can do that over the length of the series. The Canucks were in cruise control after they got ahead by two. They have at least two more gears which weren’t evident last night. They made the simple plays and ran out the clock. This game was not even close.
That was a team shutout. Luongo was barely tested. ‘Hawks need to shoot the f’n puck and get some bodies to the the net for rebounds/screens. The ‘hawks clearly weren’t ready from the outset.
Hossa’s definitely overpaid, but he was overpaid last season, too.
Hossa was only seventh in team scoring during last season’s Cup run. He had the same number of points as he did during his injury-plagued post-season with Detroit in 2009, and only half the goals. In the last four years, the only time Hossa increased his production from the regular season to post-season was with Pittsburgh where he nearly doubled his PPG. However, in both Detroit and Chicago his production was halved from regular season to post-season — that’s a swing of nearly 0.65 PPG.
Granted, point production isn’t everything, but Al put it best: no one pays $7.9 million for a strong back checker.
Hossa’s an exceptional talent and may still find a way to produce in this series, but he always was a role player. Perhaps the Blackhawks are only now realizing this because the rest of the roster is so significantly weakened.
… having Malkin, Staal, and Crosby feed him sure helped his PPG average, I’m sure.
>Count me in as one who harped in other places about how the Hossa contract is likely to be a stinker
>To me, the Hossa deal has mega-contract McD’s paws all over it
>Really don’t like that there is a marketer involved in personnel decisions who has zero hockey DNA
>McD’s mega-contracts have proven to be a disaster for the Cubs
>Hawks teetering toward being stuck in a NBA-like quagmire
>Shrewd trades and pleasant surprises are needed to revive this team
>Al, do you think having Leddy with Campbell last night was an audition so that StanBow could see if it is OK to deal the Hammer this summer?
Last night Leddy played as much time as Hammer.
Campoli has been playing more.
My thinking is he is a player who can be traded and return some value.
The Hawks aren’t going to pay him 3.5 per to be a third pairing guy…That is my guess.
Definitely agree on the need to get Hossa a centre for next year but don’t agree with the Havlat over Hossa argument some are making.
Let’s get Hossa someone to play with and see how he does. Havlat had Bolland and Ladd (which as I recall in the playoffs was the 2nd line while Pahlsson centred the 3rd line) to play with and who are both better players than Frolik and Smith for example or many other combinations Hossa has had to contend with.
And I’m not sure who Marty has “made a better player” on the Wild.
Plus Hossa’s contribution to the Cup was invaluable even playing injured – I’m not convinced that Marty over Marian would have brought us the Cup.
I know the length of the Hossa deal could be problematic but I’ll take the 2010 Cup and my chances after that. He’s only 36 in 2015 – I expect him with a good centre to still be productive at that age.
Re: last night – the Hawks by my count had 7 players playing their 1st playoff game. Correct me if I’m wrong – Crawford, Leddy, Stalberg, Bickell, Dowell, Smith, Frolik.
That’s pretty astounding.
And they were playing the best team in the league who carry a personal grudge against the Hawks. Is it really surprising how Van took it to us in the first? On CBC that’s what they predicted suggesting the Hawks had to escape the first 20 min.
They may have escaped down only 1 if not for yet another brain cramp by Keith on the 2nd goal.
However what was more surprising to me was the Van couldn’t maintain their dominance. Sure maybe they weren’t pushing as hard once they had a 2 goal lead but Bobby Lu saved their bacon more than once and the posts did 4 more times. I was encouraged by the Hawks ability to stick with it.
They could be rewarded in Game 2.
This series is not over until someone wins 4 – it’s only 1-0.
Unless my memory is incorrect….Sharp played on the 2nd line Brouwer was on 1st line while the Bolland line was more the checking line…3rd line.
Havlat helped Ladd and Bolland produce….While Hossa hasn’t had anyone of the same skill level to work with….Also I don’t think Hossa and Bolland were great together.
But let’s not make this into a Havlat Vs. Hossa debate……That was not the point of the blog.
The Hawks need to get Hossa into a position where he can be a difference maker and in this season that hasn’t happened often enough.
Also the bottom of the roster needs a lot of work.
As far as the 1st time appearances….It doesn’t matter if your count is slightly off.
No one should be surprised…When 8 players are signed for a total of $5 mill……….Most likely it signals a great deal of inexperience….
That point was pounded here before the season beagn….
It is hard to put a value on experience but you can easily see the results of inexperience.
My bad Al – Bickell played 3 games as I recall last year in the playoffs.
..still we agree on the inexperience
Absolutely
lets think about this year eh? wheres the physicallity coming from? pisani? hahaha bring in klinkhammer(for the name alone) I know some are afraid of bringing Beach in, but we need a big body to replace kopy! Wings have been brining in prospects during playoffs 4 a while.. get them used to playing at a high level.. I know know one will agree, but you get my point
Maybe Klinhammer could get a shot with another injury….Beach is doubtful.
I thought frolik was that versatile center to play with hossa??? Oh well that was the propaganda of the beat writers at the time. Q is playing the guys he trusts which at this point aren’t many. Fortunately campoli was a steal. Rozner wrote about it today that the hawks lack size and grit. I just got done watching kings sharks and westgarth was out there in ot for the kings and eager was out there for sharks. Hawks traded all their size to get under the cap. I miss Ladd the most. Awful awful deal. Nothing back for a 26 year old power forward with leadership skills.
Don’t blame the beat writers for that one…Right after the trade…Didn’tBowman mention Frolik could play center?
Also it was immediately brought up on TV that Frolik could be the center for Hossa….Only Edzo commented that he was a better wing.
To me the deal appeared obvious…Hawks had wings and needed a center…
The lesson learned is it is wrong to assume…and believe what you see.
They are trying Frolik but he shouldn’t be a goat…He hardly played center before coming here.
It’s way too one sided .. they need to split kane/toews/Hossa/Sharp on the first 2 lines somehow. It really weakens our team putting 3 of them on one line. I personally like Sharp and Kane together with a big body, or biggest we have. Sharp is a finisher and Kane is a premier set up man if not top 3 in the league. Hossa and Toews seem to work better. I love Hossa’s game, but he isn’t worth 8 mil. I have seen flashes of dominance from him this year. We need more of that for the money.. agreed.
No question about it, we have to pair Toews with Hossa, and kane with Sharp. We know how good these parings can be together. Q just can’t panic if things don’t go right and put 3 of them together to completely wreck the second line’s ability to generate scoring opportunities. We saw in the last week of the season Kane playing with lesser talent and looking real good, but Hossa does not have that style of skill set to do the same.
Al- off blog topic: Why would Morin be added to the playoff roster when he hasn’t played in a few months? Interestingly enough, Beach has not been added.
Any statements being served here to #12?
Follow up: Why were there 2 separate call ups? I don’t think money is a factor now. Where are the beat writers on this, I haven’t seen anything.
The Tribune at least reported it. Not sure about the other locals.
None of these call ups are really expected to play.
Some times it’s just a reward for a good season in the AHL to get a taste of NHL life.
Yeah, I was wondering why the needed TWO separate call ups though. I think this is where the insight of the beat reporters and their “sources” come into play, I would hope, or were curious enough to ask the question…the way the Canucks took runs at Hawks, we may need Ice Hogs later in the series!
DC…
Shruew is correct.
Being a Black Ace is more of an honor than anything else almost all of the time.
They called up the vets who had previous NHL experience on one day….Dmen.. Of which Cully is probably the only one to have a chance to play.
As far as Beach….You can read between the lines.
A couple of years ago he was called up as an Ace and then sent home. Word I got was he and Aliu had a little friendly dust up at the hotel….Aliu was sent packing also.
The benefit to being called up is the young guys get a feel for the experience. They get to travel, skate and be around the big club.
You never know what could happen by next spring and just being in the mix has some benefits.
Last year at the Final I sat near Crawford and Dowell and now they are a big part of the team….
See, I thought Hossa and Bolland were looking pretty good together before Bolland got hurt. That was during the 8 game win streak and Hossa had 7 goals and 12 points in the 9 games before Bolland got hurt. So maybe we just need Bolland to be healthy and those guys to play together for awhile. The other note there was that Kopecky was off that line at that time, so maybe the third man on the line makes a difference also. You see the difference with Toews and Kane when they are playing with Sharp instead of Stalberg, Brouwer, or Bickell. Look at Toews numbers with Sharp and Kane and then after Sharp got hurt. It is dramatic.
Hossa was starting to click with Bolly before the injury. Let’s face it, the top 2 lines haven’t been the problem. It has been the gigantic drop in talent from line 2 to 3 & 4 that has hurt the Hawks all season.
Q tries to spread the talent over the top 3 lines, but as soon as the Hawks stop scoring he loads the top 2 again and that makes the team much easier to defend.
The fact is that they are just not that deep, but they do have the talent to win at any given time. When they want to or need to or whatever the case is, they have exploded on teams before. Last Friday against the Scum, they were everywhere on the ice. I don’t ever recall a game even last year when the Hawks’ sticks were as active as they were in that game and it paid off with big turnovers. Again in the 2nd against the Sharks, they began hounding them and forced bad plays. If they want to win, they need to bring that intensity to every game.
If they can play with the intensity that they have brought to just a handful of games this year, I have no doubt that they can beat any team in the playoffs. However, all they seem to do is show glimpses of the team that they can be!
One addition observation was that Hossa was a +9 for the season and during that 9 game stretch with Bolland he was a +6. So a majority of Hossa’s plus play for the season was with Bolland.
it took a long time for them to get together and it didn’t last very long???
Al,
I’ve been a huge Hossa supporter – liked Havlat also but I think there was always a question of him seriously reinjuring the shoulder.
The one line that really made me think was your comparison to Datsyuk. Not many players are in that category, but when you make as much as Hossa, you should be in the neighborhood.
If the hawks are going to have a chance in this playoff he’ll need to dominate. He definitely needs to get on the scoresheet.
Okay – you’re now the GM in the offseason and it’s obvious the Hawks need a center. Do you go after a #3 center with the anticipation that Bolland and Hossa figure it out on the second line, or do you move Bolland down to #3 and pick up someone to be your #2 center.
With that, throw some names at me.
Me? I think I’d go for the former and try to reacquire someone like Sammy Phalsson to be the #3. From there, I have a dream that the Hawks reacquire Ladd and plant him as your #2 LW on a line with Bolland and Hossa and terrorize the shit out of everyone else in the WC.
I won’t throw names at you yet but…
Hossa doesn’t need a prolific scoring center…He must get the puck and get it back again.
A big, lefty center and a winger that can work the walls are needed.
I like Bolland as the #3.
He should be the pivot on a shut down line which would play a lot of minutes.
Getting Ladd back might not be so far fetched.
If he doesn’t sign by June 1 my guess is he will hope an offer sheet is coming.
Without another trade I’m not convinced the Thrashers can resign him and Bogosian.
Al I agree with almost all of the above but why would thrashers trade their new captain who just hit his career high in goals?
I’m basing my thinking on the Atlanta financial situation.
Buff already signed a long term contract for big dollars.
Bogosian needs to get a raise too..Evander Kane will need a new deal after next season too.
Ladd could be looking for over $3 mill..He probably could get a 3 or 4 year offer sheet for at least $3 mill per….maybe $3.5.
My guess is they have to trade away one of the two or cut salary somewhere else.
I didn’t say they would want to trade Ladd….But most likely they won’t pay both…My guess.
Unless of course they consider Ladd part of their core and as we’ve seen with our beloved hawks that core seems to grow with each guy whose contract is up, ie sea brook, hjalmar,
Meaning I thought the core was toews Kane Keith hossa Campbell, sharp and bollard, then the offer sheet added hjalmarsson, then the contract year added sea brook and before you know it the core has really expanded
The 7 Untouchables last summer were..
Bolland, Hossa, Kane, Keith, Seabrook, Sharp and Toews…
I wrote an article called 7 Untouchables….it’s in the archives.
http://hockeyindependent.com/blog/al-cimaglia/18110/
From June 22….Take a minute and read it…That was then and we will see what happens this summer.
BY the way those 7 …are still my core.
Al, after you wrote that article, when Stan matched the offer sheet for Hjalmarsson, he came out and said on 7-12-10, “he’s a big part of our core that’s going to be together for a long time.”
They just paid him about 13 mill…I would have said the same too.
My source on the core players had it exactly…Those were the players that were not going to be traded last summer and were also among the more expensive contracts.
Campbell wasn’t on the list nor was anyone else that was dealt after June 22. Not even Ladd…or Niemi.
Yu can stretch the core out to include Crawford too…
I will wait to hear something different this summer before I change from the original seven.
In my opinion the probability of Hammer being here in October is about 35%. No whispers, my take only.
Once an offer sheet is matched the player can’t be traded for one year.
Actually $ 14 mill ($3.5 x 4)
Some would say Hammer is overpaid but there is cost certainty. Plus he could play top three on quite a few teams.